The Third Growth Option with Benno Duenkelsbuehler and Guests

Navigating Discomfort and Building Trust Through Effective Communication with Cody Seaber

• Benno Duenkelsbuehler • Season 2 • Episode 26

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Are you looking for a Third Growth Option ℠ ?

We explore how to approach and engage in uncomfortable conversations that can ultimately lead to valuable insights and business growth. Through thoughtful discussion with Cody Seaber, we highlight the importance of understanding human psychology, building trust, and embracing tension in communication.

• Discussing the impact of discomfort on business conversations 
• Challenging the status quo for growth opportunities 
• Understanding diverse perspectives through the sphere of reference 
• Acknowledging and owning conflict and tension in discussions 
• Strategies for building and maximizing trust with clients 
• Emphasizing authenticity in professional interactions 
• Navigating the timing of conversations for effective outcomes 

Visit our website reALIGNforResults.com to learn more about how we can assist you in navigating uncomfortable topics for business growth and success.

Always growing.

Benno Duenkelsbuehler

CEO & Chief Sherpa of (re)ALIGN

reALIGNforResults.com

benno@realignforresults.com

Speaker 1:

Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer podcast, where we talk about all things growth, yes, even and especially those hard parts where you shed some skin and pick yourself up by the bootstraps. Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler, growth Sherpa and OG hashtag growth nerd. We're on a mission to redefine success inside and outside the business, one TGO episode at a time.

Speaker 2:

Hey guys, Cody Sieber, partner of OSPI Group. I am currently in Hawaii.

Speaker 1:

And I am, benno, the podcast host of Third Growth Option Podcast, and I am super excited to have you on this podcast, cody. You and I have gotten to know each other at various industry events over the last several years and we kind of happened upon, kind of stumbled on this topic that I'm pretty excited about having a little 20, 30-minute conversation with you about it's because I think it can help a lot of listeners and viewers. And the topic is around how do you open uncomfortable conversations that can uncover the valuable? How do you open the uncomfortable to uncover the valuable, right? How do you open the uncomfortable to uncover the valuable?

Speaker 1:

Uh, you and I both serve similar customer types mid-sized manufacturers, brands, distributors but we have very different services, right. So the ospy group offers a free service, uh, paid through a percent of the savings that you guys negotiate on freight contracts. So if a brand, a vendor, a company spends, you know, say, a half a million dollars on their freight with UPS and FedEx and you can shave $100,000 off that expense, you get paid a percentage of that savings, right? So there's no out-of-pocket for your customers in that sense.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Speaker 1:

It's a free service, realign. You know we offer a paid service. You know we have retainers, we have success fees, but there is an upfront investment and then there's huge leverage, you know, in the middle and the end of our engagements for our clients. But to me, regardless of you know the offer, whether it's a product or a service, whether you're selling to a buyer or a CEO in your business and in my business, we are usually looking to replace a competitor. We're usually, you know it often includes making people uncomfortable. I mean even if it's just uncomfortable with the change, right with. I mean even if it's just uncomfortable with the change right Now. You know they're using, in your case, the UPS and the FedEx contract in a different way. In my case, you know we're adding adjacent categories, we're building new businesses, blah, blah, blah. So there's always change involved, there's always some discomfort involved. Do you find that? And then, and that change and discomfort is, you know, leads to uncomfortable conversations at some point.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, more times than not right, you're challenging the status quo. You're challenging.

Speaker 1:

Why are they?

Speaker 2:

bringing, whether you're changing the way they've thought about something, managing a vendor differently, reevaluating business lines or business units. I mean, they're not hiring Businesses, are not hiring a vendor to come in and do the exact same thing they're already doing for an increase of cost. So you're challenging a little bit right and we all kind of we bounce back and forth on how to communicate that change, but you're challenging the status quo.

Speaker 1:

Very well put. So to me, that conversation, that uncomfortable conversation that challenges the status quo in my mind, becomes easier if you always start with the end in mind.

Speaker 2:

I love that.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And work your way back and then work your way backwards, right yeah.

Speaker 1:

And, to me, starting with the end in mind is always be mindful about. Why are we here? What's the goal? Right, the goal is to, as you just said, challenge the status quo, make the customer happier, blah, blah, blah. You know, whatever the goal I mean to me, being very intentional about starting with the end in mind helps to address the uncomfortable, makes the uncomfortable easier. How do you see that?

Speaker 2:

I agree.

Speaker 2:

I think right when you talk about the uncomfortable is, you're dealing with, I would say, the greatest variable that exists, and it's the human being.

Speaker 2:

So, understanding the psychology behind how people think and how different people think, and then working through what our end goal is when bringing forward our solutions, the types of people we want to work with and the types of solutions that our businesses bring, and then, instead of starting, beginning to end, that's where, as you're saying and I love it, and we didn't even plan this, but I 100% agree with you it's working that communication backwards. So, looking at the end goal first, and then how do we put the roadmap together? Where does the conversation start? Who are the people we want to have involved in this conversation? What are we trying to? If, in a potential conflict, if we're trying to resolve that conflict, maybe flying off the rails in the very beginning doesn't get us to the end goal right, and so it's being more attentive instead of just being reactive to a situation. It's looking at what are we trying to accomplish here and how do we put together a plan to go and do that?

Speaker 1:

And you know, I love that you bring up the word conflict here, right, when you're challenging the status quo, when you're, you know, creating discomfort, there's conflict and there's tension, and I always say that there's. You know, whenever you have more than two people in, whenever there are two or more people in the room, you're going have tension. Right, our job is to sort of make sure it's healthy tension, right? Um, do you so? I think about tension and discomfort as something to own, not you? Yeah, minimize the discomfort, yeah, minimize the tension, but you. But at the end of the day, I think you have to own the tension and the discomfort. How do you see that?

Speaker 2:

I think, owns a good word. I'd like you to maybe even elaborate on that. I I look at it more so as acknowledge, right, Maybe it's the same saying we're using it. I think we're all going to be thinking differently, right? I go back to kind of that human variable is we all have a different what I would call to in a close friend of mine, we always called it the sphere of reference, right.

Speaker 2:

So, like where I grew up and who my parents are, who my parents aren't, who it's going to influence my decision, right? So my sphere of reference looks different and so it's acknowledging that there's likely. You know, within conversation, especially in business, when you are doing things like challenging the status quo, don't go into a situation even if you think you have the greatest value proposition, don't go with rose colored glasses thinking that everybody else is sipping the same Kool-Aid that you are. Obviously, I'm biased within the work that we do and you're biased within the work that we do. That you do right. But if we come in, kind of assume positive intent about the person that you're sitting across with or sitting with, but then acknowledge that concerns are like getting ahead of it, right, it's like setting an upfront contract establishing there's probably going to be hesitations.

Speaker 2:

There's probably, you know, at times. You know some of these things might sound too good. Ability to communicate, resolve, agree, disagree within a safe space is, I think, where then ultimately growth happens. Because there's two thoughts right, it's like conflict can even can turn either nasty, or disagreements can turn nasty. Or there's the thoughts of, hey, let's just kind of pretend this doesn't happen, this isn't really here, and let's just go on, and then what happens is that creates a snowball effect down the road and and conflict and tension can also be constructive, productive absolutely yeah, it doesn't have to have a negative connotation that that's what I call healthy tension.

Speaker 1:

yeah, um, interesting. So, um, yeah, I mean, they're a big company, so the amount of money that they're spending on UPS and FedEx budget is so big that the savings you were able to give them was seven figures north of a million dollars. Yet one of the executives was very hesitant about entering into a relationship that was hugely beneficial to them, right, because this executive was afraid of maybe being embarrassed by oh, maybe I should have found that instead of Cody Talk a little bit about that situation and how you overcame that discomfort level.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, that's a great example and in our line of work that tends to happen more times than not Again, kind of challenging the status quo. Companies have managed these vendor costs one way for a very long time and we're coming in and we're giving a different sphere of reference, right. So it's outside of how they manage this vendor or vendors, you know, differently than how they've managed them previously. And it's hard. There's a lot of psychology there.

Speaker 2:

Fedex and EPS tend to, you know, communicate to their clients. They already have the best rates and you know we could kind of go through that rabbit hole too, but it is there, you know, if we come and identify a seven figure opportunity, right, relative to that business's spend, it's what? Well, what have I been doing? Or maybe the external perception of this, you know, is somebody going to think different of me because we've maybe left an opportunity on the table? How has that cost the business money? Fear, loss of control is a big thing, but within our space we do deal with what we call the DIY mentality where it's, you know, kind of want to do it, do it myself right, I don't need.

Speaker 1:

I don't need better.

Speaker 2:

Why am I hired? Why am I hiring somebody within the respects of what I can do? And so, again, that's where, just having a good, healthy conversation, this actually came up, that it, it was communicated to me uh from, uh, from the example we discussed where it was. I don't want to be, I don't want anybody to look at me differently because of this opportunity. So, and there's two people there, right, it's like hey, there's the ones that want to kind of accept where they're really, really good and why businesses like ours exist and they partner with us and we partner with them and we drive great savings, or it's the. I'd rather just kind of let this. I don't want to brush this under the rug. Maybe this will come back and it'll get handled on its own down the road. And there was, yeah, there was a change of personnel in that specific position that you know. We were able to wrap up that project in a pretty short timeframe, but it definitely just took. It took a different mindset for collaboration.

Speaker 1:

Give me your thoughts around. You know how, how do you, how do you build trust, um, and then maximize that trust? Uh, and, and I'll I'll kick it off a little bit for you, because you and I have, like I said at the onset here, met each other at industry events over the last two or three years or so and we've had, you know, casual conversations in you know hallways, at water coolers of you know trade shows and trade conferences and that kind of thing. And, like any two strangers, you and I met each other and we had certain perceptions of each other, right, like you're younger than me. So I'm like, wow, he's a younger guy and I'm older than you. So I'm like, wow, he's a younger guy and I'm older than you. You built trust with me over the years. Well, I'm going to ask you, how did you build trust with me? I obviously have my opinions about that, but I'd be curious.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think it's. I mean, there's a few things on how to build trust right. It's, ultimately, it's a desire to operate with a level of integrity, high level of integrity, that you're probably innately born with or it's developed as a young age right, like that's a component there where trust is important to you, the things you say and the things you do and the people you hang around with, like there's, you know, the root word of integrity is integer, which means whole. So like those things are consistent, right. So trust is something I uphold really highly and you know, that's kind of like an internal perspective, from an external perspective, I think, or from an external perspective. Right, it's not expecting too much from other people, it's not thinking about yourself constantly, it's thinking about the people that you're around. And then I think, as it relates to even the conversations that we've had and the time that we've spent together, is its consistency and that kind of ties back into, I would say, the sales component is it's not looking and expecting these quick wins, right, attending one show, okay, I've got to get mine, how can I benefit? It didn't work out, so then you never hear from me again. And what's really cool within this space is how intimate so many of the businesses are and how collaborative I feel like they are versus other industries that we work in as well, where you know my second, third, fourth time attending you know some of the markets and things like that. It's like, oh hey, you're back again, right, and I was surprised by that that people were acknowledging Now, I've seen you a couple of times around, you know it's understanding this what we do for our clients and the relationships we have with our clients is extremely important to both the business but also the people in the business.

Speaker 2:

Right, that's what our business is. Our business is comprised of really, really great people. That's what makes the brand, that's what makes the business is the people right, and our customers and our clients and our friends are the same way, and so I think it's having a level of consistency. That's what builds trust. Right, there's the saying.

Speaker 2:

You know it takes like 10 more interactions to basically kind of overcome a bad first impression, right, and so you have to kind of build these little foundational building blocks, gaining what I refer to as relational equity, right, right, and that compounds over time, naturally. That's the thing you just have to wait on, because you can't slow down time. You can't speed up time, you just have to be patient. I think that's what ultimately builds trust, right? So every interaction when you meet with somebody, you're building a little building block One slip you could really ruin that right. So every interaction when you meet with somebody, you're building a little building block One slip you could really ruin that right. But I think that's where operating and integrity and having that level of consistency is really important.

Speaker 1:

And I love the saying that it takes years to build trust and it takes minutes to destroy it.

Speaker 2:

Yes, exactly minutes to destroy it.

Speaker 1:

Yes, exactly, true, right, yeah and um, and actually something that you know. If you, if you try to get up every morning with integrity and with thinking about you, know the end in mind and what's good for the customer, I think whenever you think about anything you do in terms of the customer, you'll be right nine and a half times out of ten. Obviously, you can't give away the store right.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, I think building and maximizing trust definitely is about consistency, definitely is about being, you know, customer focused. I think that's what most people are selling, right? I mean, I know selling can kind of have bad connotation Not everybody loves sales reps, right. But so much of the work that we do and I would assume in your line too, right Kind of that consulting aspect is really you're selling trust and there just happens to then be a service associated with that, right? Because if they can't trust you to deliver on what they're signing up for, it doesn't really matter how great your product is.

Speaker 1:

You know it's interesting. You use the word consulting, which you know I always use the word. I mean we describe ourselves as Sherpas instead of as consultants, for the simple reason that, while there are some great consultants in the world, in our industry there are also you always joke when, when, uh, when I, when I founded realign in 2009, during the global crisis, financial crisis, the us had gained something like 10 million unemployed people 2008, 2009, which meant that they had gained nine million consultants. Sure, everybody's?

Speaker 2:

right, people that were just between jobs and so, yeah, what do you do? Which meant that they had gained 9 million consultants.

Speaker 1:

Sure, everybody's a consultant, right? People that were just between jobs and so what do you do?

Speaker 2:

I don't have a job.

Speaker 1:

Oh no, I'm a consultant, totally so the word has sort of been dragged through the mud and has been abused and has been given a taint of mistrust, right? So we, we, sometimes I think, uh, it's you know, sort of going back to, you have to start with the end in mind. Um, you know, in your business it's you know, the end is, hey, we're trying to save you money, we're trying to help you spend you know less on this necessary expense. Uh, in my business, uh, we're trying to help you build a new adjacent category, product category, access, a new channel of distribution and add seven or eight figures of revenues to your business. Uh, which, by the way, requires execution. It requires more than just putting that idea on a PowerPoint and then praying. You also have to do it. Any examples of where sort of bad examples maybe, where you have tried to open the uncomfortable to uncover the valuable, it just it went sideways oh, I think a lot of times it goes sideways.

Speaker 2:

It's just how you deliver it right and life's kind of just a learning experience right uh, I, I tend to lack patience and I and I and I kind of fool myself to think everybody's going to think like me, which I think is most people's guess.

Speaker 2:

You try to put yourself in somebody else's shoes, you're going to fall short because you just again don't know their sphere of reference. Plenty of examples where I've maybe jumped the gun, trying to go back to a decision maker after maybe the opportunity was delegated somewhere else, because I've already seen this happening a certain way through hundreds of other examples, I think, allowing things to play themselves out and asking for permission to go back if something goes sideways right, because every business operates differently.

Speaker 1:

I've worked with you have to do it at the customer's time, right, it's on their time, not our time. Yep, exactly.

Speaker 2:

And that's hard right when, within our line of work, you see companies missing out on a lot of money.

Speaker 1:

Let's do it now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, it's you know. We say you know. I just got off a call earlier this morning. The question was asked hey, what's the difference between hiring you now and hiring you in April? That's a loaded question for us. There's a lot of advantages to now versus April. I'm not going to push an agenda here. If April makes you feel more comfortable, that's great. The savings opportunity on the table is, you know, six figures. You lose five months. So that's so. It's without me having, you know, kind of an emotional opinion on the difference. Here's the math problem. This is what you're at. Does it make sense, right, If we start the project earlier versus later? This is just the math problem that you're going to be overpaying during the time frame. So that's what we're trying to do is equip our clients with really the information to make better business decisions, so that it doesn't become as emotional as maybe it has been previously.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But trust me, I make plenty of mistakes, Fennel.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, look, we all have, and that's okay. Because I make mistakes, my clients make mistakes, you make mistakes, all. Because I make mistakes, my clients make mistakes, you make mistakes, all human beings make mistakes, and it's never about trying to be perfect, it's always about keeping the bigger point in the picture. So we don't lose the bigger point in the picture, so we don't lose the bigger point, um and uh, you know, here we're talking about how do you build trust? How do you, um, address the elephant in the room, right? Um, how do you accept and own discomfort, and accept and own the fact that each human being sees things differently because of what you call their sphere of reference, right? Um, any other thoughts that you, that, uh, you want to throw into the conversation here, or? Uh, this has been a really good conversation, I? I appreciate you jumping on this call yeah, I think, just be authentic.

Speaker 2:

I think, you know, as far as it relates as you kind of like, there's a level there of trying to strike the balance between you know, addressing the uncomfortable, but, I think, also do what's authentic to you, because then again that's the quickest way, I think, to lose trust, right, right, if you're going to try to do things or be things that you're not, is then you, you really, because again, going back to integer whole, right, is you should be the same. You know it's not. Integrity is kind of thought of as you know, doing the right thing when nobody's looking, which is part of it, right, but it's being the same person really in all aspects of your life, right. So there's a conflict between you. Know, if something comes out that doesn't align with, maybe, how you've addressed things in the business world as you do your professional world, or outside, in some of these water coolers or whatever it is, that stuff's going to end up catching up to you.

Speaker 2:

Like you mentioned, it takes minutes to really lose that trust. I think that doesn't mean be like now we're kind of in the world I don't want to go off on some huge tangent where it's overly authentic, where you're kind of pushing your agenda, but it's like authentic, where you're kind of pushing your agenda, but it's like just just be comfortable in your own skin. That would be my encouragement, right and just, and then allow other people to make the decision on whether or not they want to engage things within their timeline, being respectful there, um, you know, and just kind of letting them come back full circle to, um you know, a value proposition that you may have and if not, then just be respectful within you know, allow there to be no's and respect people's no's and those types of things.

Speaker 1:

Respect the no.

Speaker 2:

Respect the no yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right right, right, right right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you said no's. Oh, no, yeah, respect the no N-O, got it.

Speaker 1:

You know it's yeah, the authenticity and consistency and just being comfortable in your skin. I can tell you that has become easier for me as I've grown older. When I was in my 20s and 30s, I was just like go, go, go go. I got to make a name for myself Better, faster, cheaper. I was just sort of revving the engine all the time to the point where, you know, and I think people forgive you know, a 25 and a 35 year old guy, that more than a 50 or 60 year old person, but that's been an interesting part for me of of podcasting.

Speaker 1:

You know, I did the first hundred plus episodes were we're audio only and and, and the first dozen I was super uncomfortable and I've learned to become more comfortable. And then, you know, we said, hey, let's do, let's do video, and I was, oh what? Oh, my god, I, I, you know, uh, I, you know I have to poker face. I have to use my poker face more often because I I people always know what I'm thinking Like. If I think somebody said something really stupid, you know I'll probably be the one rolling my eyes, which you know.

Speaker 2:

I guess I do it on podcasts too, but you, probably get to meet a lot of different people, which is, I think, a huge benefit. Right, and again, all having a different sphere of reference, right, right.

Speaker 1:

Cody, this was a great conversation. If folks wanted to reach out to you, you know, just on on on anything, but I think any anybody who has a you know, who spends money with UPS and FedEx, they should definitely call reach out to you. What, uh, do you want to give your um website address or email address?

Speaker 2:

yeah, no, you can go to the website. Uh, ospiegroupcom. A-u-s-p-i groupcom. Uh, my email is quite simple cody at ospie group, so I can also ben if you, when you share this, if you want to share that.

Speaker 1:

Terrific, awesome. Here it is. Thank you so much for jumping on this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks for the invite. We'll see you soon. Take care, Bye friend.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to this episode of TGO Podcast. You can find all episodes on our podcast page at wwwrealign4resultscom. You can find me, Benno, host of TGO Podcast, there as well. Just email, benno B-E-N-N-O at realign4resultscom. Let's keep growing.

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Benno Duenkelsbuehler

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