The Third Growth Option with Benno Duenkelsbuehler and Guests
Welcome to The Third Growth Option, where we're not just talking about growth—we're making it our mission.
At TGO, we understand that success isn't a fixed destination; it's an ongoing journey with twists, turns, and unexpected detours that take us to new places. Those moments are our Third Growth Options, where we throw away binary choices to create our own path.
Hosted by Benno Duenkelsbuehler, O.G #GrowthNerd, we're on a mission to redefine success inside and outside of business, one episode at a time. From humble beginnings to Fortune 500 companies, our stories are not just about business—it's about the relentless pursuit of greatness in every aspect of life.
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The Third Growth Option with Benno Duenkelsbuehler and Guests
Building Trust in a Multi-Channel World
Are you looking for a Third Growth Option ℠ ?
How do retailers juggle the complex world of multi-channel sales? In this episode, we dive deep into the evolving gift and home industry with Kim Leister, president of Simblist. We explore how old-school methods like trade shows and store visits have morphed into a blend of digital platforms like FAIR and Amazon. Kim shares her insights on the challenges retailers and vendors face, especially when it comes to keeping customers informed in an increasingly complex market.
We also touch on the heart of the industry: relationships and transparency. Over the last 20 years, collaboration and trust have become essential to success, especially as the roles of sales reps evolve. Kim talks about how businesses can balance personalized service with digital strategies, while personal stories highlight the importance of customer loyalty and trust. This episode unpacks how embracing vulnerability and focusing on fairness can foster an environment where both vendors and retailers can thrive in a competitive landscape.
Always growing.
Benno Duenkelsbuehler
CEO & Chief Sherpa of (re)ALIGN
Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer podcast, where we talk about all things growth, yes, even and especially those hard parts where you shed some skin and pick yourself up by the bootstraps. Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler, growth Sherpa and OG hashtag growth nerd. We're on a mission to redefine success inside and outside the business, one TGO episode at a time.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody, I am Kim Leister. I am located outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I've lived here my entire life. I am the president of Symbolist. More importantly, I am a huge geek and lover of our industry. I just can't get away from it. I'm happy to be here today with Benno.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thank you so much, kim, and this industry we're talking about is the gift and home industry, and Symbolist is a wonderful sales agency. With how many sales people do you have?
Speaker 2:We have 22.
Speaker 1:22 sales people and I'm excited to have this conversation. I should probably introduce myself. I'm Benno, the host of the Third Growth Option podcast, recorded today from our Mexico City office, and I just want to have a conversation with you, kim, about this multi-channel world, multi-touchpoint world. That used to be a little bit easier when it was all analog right. There were sort of three ways for a consumer products company to sell something to a retailer. It was like the buyer came to see the seller at a trade show, the buyer came to see the seller at their office, or the seller, the salesperson came to see the buyer in the retail store right or at the office. So it used to be sort of three ways.
Speaker 1:But now we have the retailer has a website, the seller, the consumer products vendor brand, has a website. They're on Fair, they're on Amazon. You know there's probably 10 different websites that everybody is selling and buying from. So it makes it complicated and complex and people sort of crash into each other and systems and websites sort of crash into each other. What's your just? How do you describe this complexity and how do you make sense of it all?
Speaker 2:I guess yeah, I think that we are in an evolving industry and whether it's personal, professional, we all have to evolve. So I do see it as a good thing. I think that there's confusion out there and one of the biggest confusions that comes in is with the customer, and I think it's our job as agencies, as vendors, to give clear guidance and clear acceptance and support of all these different ways to buy. Additionally, I think we have to educate on the different ways to buy and that's our job to do that. I believe, and it's our job to work with our vendors, that we work together to set that protocol.
Speaker 2:So for me, our most important thing as an agency and always should be is to physically be present for our customers. That is, first and foremost, getting out there, seeing them, understanding their business, so we can guide them to buying the right product for their stores. Then, of course, we have shows, which are wonderful. The vendors are there, you have vendor websites where they can order from and you have fair where they can order from. So, I think, educating the customer. We don't go in and say you can just buy from us, you can just buy from our showroom. We educate them on the different options, because we do have to meet the customer where they are. Because, at the end of the day, too, we're working with customers that don't have as much time and staffing as they used to, so it's important.
Speaker 1:And just for listeners, sort of outside of the gifted home industry, when we're talking about customers, we're talking about these tens of thousands of retailers in the United States. Thousands of retailers in the United States, right Be that, I don't know something like 80,000 mom and pop sort of single location, gift stores or garden centers or hardware stores or clothing boutiques, what have you to regional chains, to specialty stores, all the way up to the big box. Big box, sure? So that's just, let's say, 100,000 different buyers. Are our customers right? When FAIR came along which FAIR is sort of the Amazon for retail buyers, that created a lot of confusion and don't move my cheese. And uh, we're in a different place with that now than we were four, three, four, five years ago. Uh, are, are, are we not? Or where do you think? How do you thinkIR fits into the equation today? And what could vendors do better to make that? What could? For some vendors it's 5%, 2% of their business, for others it might be 20% of their business. What can vendors do better?
Speaker 2:So first I want to say when FAIR first came out, I think there really was a great place for it for discovery brands. You had these small vendors that couldn't afford to pay an agency, a commission, to their reps, and I think it was a really great place to launch brands. And back when I was on the road, I would say to reps you should look at it. You might find stuff. You're going to get a guaranteed sale, you're going to get terms, you're going to get all these benefits. Or maybe it's the smaller shops, maybe it's, you know, people struggling with a little bit money, maybe they want to find some unique things. And I think it really had a solid place.
Speaker 2:And that has changed because so many vendors have gotten on fair and I feel like it is diluted fair in a negative way. So what happens is these poor customers look at fair. They're not getting the same deal from I'll even remove the sales rep from it. They're not even getting the same deal from I'll even remove the sales rep from it. They're not even getting the same deal from the vendor directly. So they're going to go to fair, they're going to get that deal and they're going to stay on there.
Speaker 2:And that becomes an issue because there's some really good deals on there and is that sustainable long-term for any vendor? And I do worry too, and I say this all the time we have to be really careful with. What has happened in this world is everything is discounted, everything has a promotion attached to it, and I think about the small stores out there. They can't sustain on a promotion every day, right, and it's the same thing for the vendor and it's the same thing for us. So FAIR was a big game changer in the sense that I really do wish it stayed in its lane, because I think it could have grown and been really great. And the one thing that we lack in this industry is new vendors, because it's hard to be a new vendor, it's hard to get your name out there. Fair was a great platform for these vendors to get out there and for customers just to discover new brands. I think it dilutes and becomes complicated. I think everybody also wants a piece of the pie.
Speaker 1:Right, and I mean the way I look at it. I think you know, look different buyers. Buyers want to buy the way they want to buy, right? Some buyers want to buy face-to-face with a salesperson in their store. Others want to buy, you know, at 10 o'clock at night from a website because they don't have time to do it during the day. Some others want to buy in the showroom, and so there's a dozen different ways to do it now, instead of these two or three ways. Um, and I think it is up to the vendor community, the brands, uh, that are that are utilizing different web digital platforms and are utilizing services of sales agencies like yours, or hiring their own salespeople if they're a large company. It's up to the brands and vendors to coordinate all of that and align all of that so that the pricing mix and the assortment mix and the promotional mix doesn't create a traffic jam.
Speaker 2:Right. I think inconsistency creates confusion. Right, creates confusion. So if I have a vendor that's offering all these promos on fair, then I have another vendor that isn't, then I have another vendor that's in between. I step back and say here we are as an industry and this industry the agency side really hasn't changed over the years. We've operated on basically a set commission. That's never changed. Our terms have really never changed. Maybe we've adjusted some contracts, here and there We've had to adjust based on fare and different things going on, but the inconsistency is very confusing, not only for the reps but the customers, and I always think to myself why isn't there like just a protocol set? Everybody gets the same deal, everybody does the same thing, and I think it would be super helpful. That's what we do and we take that vendor promo and, whether it's during a show season or whatever it may be, we extend that to our customers, we make them aware of it and I feel like that's consistent and it has been.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Are you laughing at me?
Speaker 1:No, I'm not at all laughing at you.
Speaker 1:I'm smiling because before we hit the record button we were talking about your recent trip to Europe and my having grown up in Germany. A broad overgeneralization is that Germans or Europeans are more orderly and Americans are more entrepreneurial. Right, and part of my attraction to making the United States my home for the last 40 plus years and becoming a US citizen is this entrepreneurial spirit. And in our gift and home industry that entrepreneurial spirit is especially well and alive because we have, you know, we have thousands of smaller, you know of startup or 10 to 15 year old brands where the owner is this creative dynamo and that creates wonderful product and wonderful merchandising ideas and wonderful, you know, creativity. Uh, and those kinds of cats are hard to pin down.
Speaker 1:And you, with a German traffic cop, you know, everybody stop at a red light and everybody go at a green light. So it's a balancing act. I feel like right, I totally agree that a protocol would be a lovely thing and I'm imagining myself. You know we're going to the GHTA conference next week as of the recording here, and I could just imagine myself in a room of 200, you know, 100 sales agency folks and 100 vendor brands. Let's sit around a table and create a protocol together. It'll be a food fight.
Speaker 2:It will be a food fight. We just won't have any food on the table. You know, I think about this and this is what a struggle is and it's not, you know, poor us, this side of the industry, because we really want to evolve and give. The ultimate thing is to get our customers more successful. The more successful they are, the more ideas we give them, the more we create product that is right for them, is going to make them grow. That's the one thing. I would think the vendors, the agencies and fair, we all have that same goal we want our customers to have money to spend, to be successful and do great things in this country for everybody. So I think you know, like, say, our website, our protocol on our website is it's there. It's a great website. We've invested a lot of money in it. It's our third line of defense I say. I always say we're on the road. We should be on the road in our showroom and then online.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:But our online system is that order comes through, it goes to the rep, the rep has to evaluate it, approve it and take it through the follow-up. And I think some inconsistencies we see is if an order goes direct to a vendor, either through FARE or to them, what is the protocol that we can set up that's consistent?
Speaker 1:Does the rep even know about it right?
Speaker 2:Exactly. And listen, I think there has to be some consistency. Okay, it comes in that way. Let's set a 24 or 48 hour period where the rep gets to review it and then release it. You know there, there just has to. We have a protocol. I don't think everybody on the other side has the same protocol and that is kind of like a food fight, Right?
Speaker 1:right right.
Speaker 2:And that creates confusion for the customer.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's for the retail buyer. Are you ready to learn how to evaluate like a Sherpa so you can build new revenues like a Sherpa? Introducing our growth evaluation workshops, where you will learn about growth evaluation concepts and methodologies, problem definition, growth killers, opportunity scoping and goal setting, case studies and methodologies. Problem definition, growth killers, opportunity scoping and goal setting, case studies and group discussions, applied learnings cross-functionally. And get a certificate while you're at it, for you, for your company, for your growth growth evaluation workshops. For booking, contact Alexis at realignforresultscom. You're exactly right.
Speaker 1:And you know, one thing that I'm very excited about in the gift and home industry is the fact that we have gotten better as an industry in the last 10, 20 years in terms of being more collaborative, more open, more transparent, sharing with each other. I remember 10, 20 years ago, everybody was like this, you know, like no, I'm not going to tell you what I'm doing, you know.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to show you my product. I'm not going to show you my policies or protocols. I'm going to do it and I'm going to try to be better than you. Right, that's right, and I think that is the power of you know, trade associations, getting the different stakeholders together around a table more and more. So you're absolutely right, we do need to. What else can? What else can, what else are you telling your reps to do in this more complicated, complex world than because many of them are probably holding on to it? But 10 years ago it was easier, right?
Speaker 2:Sure, and I think 10 years ago it was a lot easier because you weren't competing with anybody. The rep was just out there getting the orders they would. They'd have set appointments. Then they'd be stopping in at new accounts and it was different because there was no competition. They still have the same exact job to do Set those appointments. While they're out of that appointment on the ride home, oh, I see a store I'm going to stop in, I'm going to introduce myself. None of that has changed. Nor'll throw something out there. I hate bestsellers. I don't believe in them. That seems counterintuitive. Bestseller in Philadelphia, pennsylvania, is not a bestseller in New York. So it's our job as the people on the street to go in there and be like you know what you should have. This, this and this and you're going to create these are going to become your bestsellers, that's right.
Speaker 2:So it's individualizing each customer, and that is the beauty of knowing your territory, knowing your customers and being there.
Speaker 1:You know, I love that you said that because, on the one hand, of course, there is value to know what a brand's bestsellers are and it is absolutely important to also be very conscious of the reasons that make it a bestseller may not apply to this individual store, right, there may be a regional chain having it as an end cap or something like that, right, that's why it's a bestseller.
Speaker 1:It's not going to be a bestseller in Chestnut Hill, pennsylvania. Right, and I think that is one of the key values that a local sales rep provides that they're in the store and they can help with the merchandising. And you know, that's why a vendor that has a good, you know that has a great catalog, online catalog, paper website, makes it easy to buy. That's great, but that is not enough. That is not the same as a salesperson walking into the store and saying you know what, this glass is great for everybody else, but you need this one in the smaller or bigger size or in a color or whatever, because it would fit really well on that display you have over there.
Speaker 2:Right and that's time physically spent somewhere Right and building that relationship. Because I always tell the story I bought Toyotas for years. I bought Toyotas because I love this guy. I don't think I really liked a Toyota. To be quite honest with you, I was thinking the other day how many Toyotas have we bought from this man? I think it's like over 11.
Speaker 1:Because I love this man, because you like the salesperson.
Speaker 2:I love the salesperson. I'll never forget the first time I met him. He walked outside to show me something and he said to me walk away. And I looked at him like what did you just say to me? And he said do you need the car today?
Speaker 2:And I said, no, I mean, this is going back a long time I said no and he goes okay, leave, I'll talk to you later. And we have built such a relationship with this man because of his approach. He was an ex-Philadelphia cop selling cars calm, nice. I would refer anybody to him. And I think that's the importance of the relationship and the trust and the investment somebody else makes. And I don't think, you know, we're in this time right now where sales aren't great and everybody wants to know what they're doing wrong and it's not that anybody's necessarily doing anything wrong, it's just a bad time. But you take this bad time and you be present, whether you have an appointment or don't have an appointment, you be present to build the relationship Because the return on the investment for that is going to be huge when the chaos dies down.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So I think that you know that's that physical investment, that value. And don't get me wrong, I don't think a rep should be driving four hours to pop in. I also don't think a rep should have a territory-.
Speaker 1:For a $50 order that will never buy more than $100 a year right, exactly.
Speaker 2:So there is that part of that and that's where the benefit comes in of the websites, whether it be the vendor fair, that's where that comes in. So I mean, I do think there's a balance to it. But I also think a rep's territory shouldn't be four hours away, but that's a whole other topic, you know it has to be strategically defined.
Speaker 1:You know it has to be strategically defined. You know I jotted down the word disintermediation just because I love that word. No, when you and I talked a month ago about you said sales reps are afraid of being cut out of the transaction. Right, so private equity people use the word disintermediation and I love it. But are your salespeople less afraid today, now that we're sort of five, ten years into the evolution of digital channels, participating more and more? Or is the field growing or abating?
Speaker 2:I'm going to be honest, I don't experience that as much in our business. I think it's real for a lot of people, for a lot of people, but I think it's also back to you know. Some things I will say to our reps are the vendor has to stay in business and if we're not growing with them, they need other venues as well. So I think the education process is super helpful for all of us and I think that that's a big disconnect in our industry. Going back to holding everything tight, and I don't know if necessarily it's the ripple effect from that, but if I sat down I always wonder Do your sales rep really know what's going on with the vendor?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Does the vendor really know what's going on with us all the time, Right? And I think that there's a lack of open and honest communication and sharing transparencies that we actually all understand. Like there are times, you know, it'll be a smaller vendor and that smaller vendor is panicked for money and they are really reaching out to the reps all the time when the reps should be on the road and we have an open communication policy. Our vendors can contact our reps whenever. But I think to understand, like we'll say to our reps nobody's financially backing them, Right, so understand that. Like we'll say to our reps nobody's financially backing them, so understand that.
Speaker 2:And I think that's, you know, we all have different levels of vendors, agencies I think, a better understanding of who we all are and how we operate. Like I was on a call last week and the vendor said I'm always afraid when the phone rings I'm getting fired. And I was so shocked to hear that, Like I never in a million years would have thought of that and I was like it was like a light bulb moment for me. Like if they feel that way, who else feels it that way?
Speaker 1:Right, right, I think what you just said is super important that any business, right, any business owner you as the leader of Symbolist, the vendor owner, founder of a consumer products company, any business or employee for that matter knows what they know and has their goals and their ways to go after it. And all of us need other people, right, you know inside the company, you know the product, people need the sales, people need the operations, people From one company to another. You know you have outside service providers, you have customers to another. You know you have outside service providers, you have customers. Everybody depends on each other and we all and this happens inside families right, we all think that this one is not listening to me and that one is making that mistake and nobody understands me. And the only way to make it better is better collaboration through better transparency, through being vulnerable and say, yeah, I don't have all the answers and I'm afraid you're going to fire me and you're probably afraid of something else, right? So how do we collaborate and be honest, open with each other?
Speaker 2:I love that. You said you have to be vulnerable, and that's something I've really learned. You can't sit there and fake it. You have to be vulnerable and you have to own it and you have to say what's going on. I don't think a vendor of ours could say that I wouldn't be like you know what. We totally messed up. You're right, you are 100% right, and I think that we have to acknowledge that more than we do, and I think on both sides all sides we have to acknowledge that. I'll even throw in fair should acknowledge some of the things that have happened.
Speaker 2:I think we all, instead of like clawing to get to the top I always forget the quote Andy Burek always says it it's a rising tide, is it? A rising tide raises all ships. That's right. I really wish we could do that together. Like I know, I have great partnerships with other agencies. A vendor comes to me. It's not right for us. I send it to somebody else, do an intro, Like if we could all be more transparent and more vulnerable, even to say I'm failing this vendor. I think it's a better fit with somebody else. How do we, how do we help that vendor to get them to somebody else and vice versa, Like it has to be an open collaboration of nobody's ever going to tell me anybody's perfect, we're all going to mess up, we're all going to fail, we're. We're going to fail each other. And you know, either we get to the other side of that collectively or we don't.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So I would love personally to see more of that in the industry. More of you know as I refer to it as playing nice in the sandbox.
Speaker 1:Right, you know that's. That's probably a great ending line to this conversation that we should just all play nice with each other in the sandbox. Do the things we were taught in kindergarten.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right, be fair and nice and open?
Speaker 1:No, but I think in terms of business, look, business obviously is tougher than a sandbox, right, because people go out of business, people lose their livelihood if things don't go right. But I think, especially because the stakes are higher, I think that makes it even more important to collaborate and be transparent and be vulnerable. But I love the way in which you describe how you're coaching your sales team and also approaching the conversations with vendors and brands to figure it out together. Nobody is, you know. There's not an us versus them. There's an us. That's right.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for hopping on this podcast episode. Hey, folks wanted to reach out to you one-on-one. Where's a good place for them to find you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can. You can go to LinkedIn. My email is klister at symbolistgroupcom, and if you forgot that, just go to the symbolistgroupcom website and you can find me on there too.
Speaker 1:You'll see a photo of Kim Leister.
Speaker 2:You'll see there you go, you will see a photo of me.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, thanks for having me Benno, have a great day.
Speaker 1:Thank you, take care.
Speaker 2:Thanks, bye-bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this episode of TGO Podcast. You can find all episodes on our podcast page at wwwrealign4resultscom. You can find me, benno, host of TGO podcast, there as well. Just email Benno B-E-N-N-O at realign4resultscom. Let's keep growing.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
